Curse

Yanman.be · Dec 23, 2006, 12:26 PM // 12:26

HB right now are full of title griefers, rollers, and people who abuse AI in an almost perverse way.

Also the sheer amount of cookie cutters who think they own.

I saw a guy claiming he was better than me because he ran 3 RaO thumpers and a monk. Go figure.

Seltack · Dec 23, 2006, 12:33 PM // 12:33

Where as in GvG someone runs a load of searing eles and thumpers and think he's better than you?

Amity and Truth · Dec 23, 2006, 12:40 PM // 12:40

Hey, is the new FOTM to hate on everything that is "Hero"?

zakaria · Dec 23, 2006, 01:06 PM // 13:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yanman.be

HB right now are full of title griefers, rollers, and people who abuse AI in an almost perverse way.

Also the sheer amount of cookie cutters who think they own.

I saw a guy claiming he was better than me because he ran 3 RaO thumpers and a monk. Go figure.

I don't think he'll say something like this unless he won you with his hero build, and if that happened you have to admit his build is better than yours.People doesn't want to admit that sometimes highly simple offensive builds can pwn their builds.

PS:i'm not that one who is claiming he is better than you, i was just making a point.

Frank Dudenstein · Dec 23, 2006, 01:15 PM // 13:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

Because TA is dead due to abuse, and HA is dead due to abuse. HB is new and can be redeemed.

And HB is much more exciting and thought-provoking than any TA or HA slugfest.

This is the funniest thing I've read in a long time ... You do realize that GW was built/balanced around team-based PvP, right? If you want to play an RTS there are certainly better ones out there...

Winstar · Dec 23, 2006, 02:27 PM // 14:27

Honestly, there is little or nothing thought provoking about Hero battles. It was painfully dull how easy they were, and I still dislike hitting AI when I want to pvp. The maps themselves do add new elements, npcs, catapaults, health shrines etc., and so there is some potential for a good game here if done right. But why not kick the stupid heros and make it a new 4 v 4 format for humans?
Anyway, TA is still a fun arena imo and I wish they would have added a ladder for it instead of AI wars. My only real thought as to why they did it was to appease a certain portion of the population. Some more casual or pve oriented players were upset that HA lost heroway, GvG got big updates (For better or worse we'll find out) so to appease the other crowd they add support for a largely PvE style of PvP. But really that this format gets the same support as GvG does is a joke.

Amity and Truth · Dec 23, 2006, 02:39 PM // 14:39

Why?
Why is it a joke?
Does the GvG Crowd somehow exist of superior human beings or something? I don't see any reason why the GvG Players should be treated differently. They play the same game. They have payed the same price for it as everyone else. So why should they be any special?
What is the troublesome influence that will spring from allowing Heroes Battle Fans to have a ladder of their own? Please, tell me how this does influence the GvG Player.

It's a different part of the game. A part of the same game though. GvG is just one side and like every other side not any better than the other sides. As i said earlier, i think it's just some sort of FOTM to bombard Heroes.

zakaria · Dec 23, 2006, 02:48 PM // 14:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winstar

Honestly, there is little or nothing thought provoking about Hero battles. It was painfully dull how easy they were, and I still dislike hitting AI when I want to pvp. The maps themselves do add new elements, npcs, catapaults, health shrines etc., and so there is some potential for a good game here if done right. But why not kick the stupid heros and make it a new 4 v 4 format for humans?
Anyway, TA is still a fun arena imo and I wish they would have added a ladder for it instead of AI wars. My only real thought as to why they did it was to appease a certain portion of the population. Some more casual or pve oriented players were upset that HA lost heroway, GvG got big updates (For better or worse we'll find out) so to appease the other crowd they add support for a largely PvE style of PvP. But really that this format gets the same support as GvG does is a joke.

1- GvG ladder mechanic system is untouched and goes same as it is.
2- complaints about heroway are finished by limiting 2 henchmen/heros per party.
3- gaile stated many times they will be upcoming changes to PvP.

I don't see any changes or improvements to HB touch you or any hardcore PvP player (HA/GvG)..so what's your point ?!

Aera · Dec 23, 2006, 02:54 PM // 14:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

Because TA is dead due to abuse, and HA is dead due to abuse. HB is new and can be redeemed.

And HB is much more exciting and thought-provoking than any TA or HA slugfest.

There's still a lot of TA players actually, it's not dead at all

Ninna · Dec 23, 2006, 03:16 PM // 15:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcruisejr

nerf /roll. disable it in battle and enable it in outposts so bored players can gamble.

/roll was already nerfed almost 2 years ago due to Casinos
http://www.guildwars.com/support/gam...ve-2005-05.php

Quote:

Removed the "/roll” command from towns and outposts.

Avarre · Dec 23, 2006, 04:47 PM // 16:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amity and Truth

Why?
Why is it a joke?
Does the GvG Crowd somehow exist of superior human beings or something? I don't see any reason why the GvG Players should be treated differently. They play the same game.

People fooling around in a pool and olympic althletes are both swimming, but if you think they are on the same level of effort and capability, or deserving of the same attention, then your logic is oddly intrinsic.

EDIT : I changed the wording of my analogy, as it was misunderstood as to be an attack on other players.

Draikin · Dec 23, 2006, 05:07 PM // 17:07

I think the potential is certainly there but the current hero battles concept is so flawed that it needs to be changed drastically to make it worthwhile:

- disable emotes during battles or fix the consecutive wins (for example give 4 Victory points after 4 wins)
- reset the Commander title for everyone after fixing the above.
- change the bonus from the center shrine so that it no longer grants points, change the NPC shrine so that the NPC no longer counts as an extra team member while capping shrines.
- improve the AI: currently the heroes have no problem killing themselves while hexed with spoil victor. There's also the monks who are walking around at 25% health with 4 conditions on them and still refuse to use any form of condition removal. Even worse are monks who are at full energy and who aren't healing at all. There's also the problem with the extra NPC who decides to run off even if you tell him to stay at his current location. The AI reaction to AoE damage also needs work: by the time they run away from meteor shower they're half dead.
- Fix the bugs with the waypoints. Apart from the skill casting bug there's also the problem with heroes who refuse to use any skill if they haven't reached their destination. If you manage to block/snare then before they reach their destination, you can wipe time out easily.

Hell Marauder · Dec 23, 2006, 05:10 PM // 17:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Toddlers splashing in a pool and olympic althletes are both swimming, but if you think they are on the same level of effort and capability, or deserving of the same attention, then your logic is oddly intrinsic.

That toddler may well be olympic athlete of his/her age, if there's such thing as olympic tournament for toddlers. People like to pick on heroes because they know heroes can't fight back or talk back at them, a very cowardly act at its root.

HvH is the idea of the same team that came up with GvG. Football is a sport, so is tennis. And you never know how AI will evolve one day, and Pentagon is developing fighting robots and unmanned airplane as we speak. War is still war, whether fought by machines or swords.

drekmonger · Dec 23, 2006, 05:28 PM // 17:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draikin

- reset the Commander title for everyone after fixing the above.

Well, yeah. Although the title should be like the champ title, based on ladder ranking. But reset it, yes.

Quote:

- improve the AI: currently the heroes have no problem killing themselves while hexed with spoil victor. There's also the monks who are walking around at 25% health with 4 conditions on them and still refuse to use any form of condition removal. Even worse are monks who are at full energy and who aren't healing at all. There's also the problem with the extra NPC who decides to run off even if you tell him to stay at his current location. The AI reaction to AoE damage also needs work: by the time they run away from meteor shower they're half dead.

That's where you come in. I have no problem with meteor storm because I anticipate it and tell my guys to back off. I'll help my monk and/or paragon along and click skills and targets for him. The game is decided by whomever can juggle the most micro while still managing strategic positions.

I daresay, at the highest levels of play, HvH will reward the very best players. Meanwhile, not so great players will continue to blame the AI or cheesy builds for their losses. (though I'll agree that the AI doesn't have the appropriate response to Spoil Victor...it's mostly just that the skill is overpowered). I haven't personally encountered a build in HvH that I could not beat yet ....

...and I tend to run entirely offensive builds with very little defense (as in no dedicated healer). The two or three monk heavy defense builds are a joke, and almost alway end up beaten in the end. The searing flames spammers are easily defeated if you just micro you're guys positions. The center altar spirit spammers (of which I might be the first) can be beat via dervishes, aoe, spiritual pain, or shields up/whirling defense even.

The "problem" with HvH is that there's so far no observation mode or matchmaking. (though I anticipate that will change when the ladder is implemented) People are free to complain about the latest tactic to beat their own flawed tactics, without seeing how better players dispatch cheesy builds. People are free to farm PvE noobs with lame tactics for hours without encountering real opposition.

Draikin · Dec 23, 2006, 05:55 PM // 17:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by drekmonger

I haven't personally encountered a build in HvH that I could not beat yet ....

I assume you're running an assassin primary/secondary?

Quote:

Originally Posted by drekmonger

...and I tend to run entirely offensive builds with very little defense (as in no dedicated healer).

Now I have real trouble believing you, unless you're offense consists of a pack of spirits...

Quote:

Originally Posted by drekmonger

The game is decided by whomever can juggle the most micro while still managing strategic positions.

True, although I find that spirit spammers + assassin holding builds are simply overpowered because of the way the shrines work. Who's going to outmaneuver an assassin with shadow of haste + shadow prison when it comes to positioning, or take down a team with 3 spirit spammers while the assassin runs of capping the other shrines?

Winstar · Dec 23, 2006, 07:32 PM // 19:32

"I don't see any changes or improvements to HB touch you or any hardcore PvP player (HA/GvG)..so what's your point ?!"(Zakaria)

The point is not that increased support for HB will undermine GvG in anyway as it won't. The point is that it is strange that HB would be given equal treatment in terms of tournament support. As pointed out Avarre, like it or not, there is a huge difference in quality of play as it stands. At the moment its not just a difference of tennis vs basketball or something like that. Its like Pro Tennis players vs elementary school badminton. This of course doesn't mean that it couldn't improve, but this raises other issues. (1) What about existing formats that have a strong following that could use more support, i.e. TA, HA. Why pass over doing something to aid these formats? (2) If you want to support PvP why push to the fore a format which is primarily about AI (Heros...). (3) If you like these new arenas why not just dump the heros and make it a new 4v4 arena? The maps and goals themselves could be good if tinkered with, why not let teams of real players go in? Koss and friends shouldn't be a essential part of a PvP format that is gaining substantial support.

Basically HB was a new and not so popular arena, suddenly out of the blue its getting equal treatment to GvG. Why???????????????????

selber · Dec 23, 2006, 08:16 PM // 20:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amity and Truth

Why?
Why is it a joke?

Because Arena Net has limited resources. Some people (...) have the impression the resources appropriated for GvG are not enough even now, - causing many problems. And splitting those resources to power 2 lines could be devasting for this game. All I know is that NCSoft has many problems and some managers may be thinking it is the task of "marketing" again to solve them.

FoxBat · Dec 23, 2006, 08:34 PM // 20:34

The reason for anet support, good or not, is threefold

A) You have to buy the latest product Nightfall to play hero battles.

B) It's an outlet for 1v1 competition. (No snide remarks about 1 vs 3 AI, if the human player isn't piloting their heroes at least somewhat, they aren't going to win against someone who is.)

C) But most importantly of all, it is easy to track. With the anti-guesting rules , a guild vs guild roster stays relatively fixed for a season. How do you track Team Arenas progress, when in TA you can take any 4 people from any guild or guildless? If you fix 4 players to a team with a custom team name for the duration of the season, your basically making them into a mini-guild. Which may not be a bad idea but will probably be frowned on by anet for being inelegant and basically reproducing GvG where they didn't want to. Inidividuals OTOH are very easy to track, they can even switch guilds as much as they like without affecting anything, you're still always the same person with the same rating unless you have multiple accounts.

Nonetheless I think mini-tournament support for TA would be awesome. Even if no long-term ladder or big tournies, just a bunch of elimination tournies with some prize at the end would be fun. Although though this is pretty much stepping on the toes of HA if it remains a 6-player arena (and if anything is ever done about altar).

The Ernada · Dec 23, 2006, 08:42 PM // 20:42

Ok before some of you start calling others "toddlers", I'll start by saying that I do PVP pretty regularly in all formats, except RA. Everything from TA, HA, GvG, and Alliance Battles.

I dont claim to be a master at anything but claims that HvH is for "toddlers" is pretty damn insulting. It smacks of snobbishness. Just because it's not GvG, doesnt mean it's a "joke" I LOVE GvG...and I can also appreciate HvH as well.

Some of you need to get over yourselves and taking yourselves so seriously. You are not superior to anyone. If ANET wishes to "give equal treatment" to a format you don't like. Tough. It's the same as some PVE players complaining about GvG tournaments and not getting PVE tournies.

Just be happy with what you do like and have and stop bitching about what others would enjoy.

drekmonger · Dec 23, 2006, 08:48 PM // 20:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draikin

I assume you're running an assassin primary/secondary?

No. I've never run an assassin in HvH. Not so far, anyway.

Quote:

Now I have real trouble believing you, unless you're offense consists of a pack of spirits...

In two of my builds yes. In the other two, no spirits whatsoever. And only the spirit spam build features a dedicated healer. The other three builds that I commonly use have no healer beyond a paragon with offensive and defensive shouts. (hardly a dedicated healer, he's half offense)

This is what I mean by the lack of observation mode hurting HvH. When people start seeing one of my teams dismantle a defense heavy team on the observation mode, I suspect the meta game will shift towards my style of play....which is frankly more fun than the defense heavy rut people are stuck in.

Or people will continue to run two to three monks, and I'll be at the top of the ladder.